\ 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. Courtenay, Esq. 6976. And from your knowledge and experience you have no hesitation in saying that of the 10 I. voters on the Longford register, there is the number you 27 March 1838. jiaye a] reac[ y mentioned of fictitious and unqualified voters ?— According to my judgment. 6977. Mr. O'Connell And according to your wish ?— No, it is not. 6978. Would not you wish to have them determined to be fictitious and unqua- lified-— I would, after they have had a fair hearing. 6979. That, as the result of a fair hearing, they should be decided against?— I am quite sure they would be. 6980. And it is your wish that they should?— It is my wish that they should be off the register, because I do not think they ought ever to have been on it. 6981. In fact, others would represent the county if they were off?— In answer- ing the questions of this honourable Committee, I do it without the slightest feeling of that sort. 6982. Is it not necessarily one of the ingredients in your mind ?— I can divest my mind of that when I come into this room. 6983. Mr. Curry What in your understanding is the meaning of the words " beneficial interest," as occurring in the Irish Reform Act ?— That he has a real interest of 10 /. a year. 6984. Do you consider those words as synonymous with clear yearly value ? — I do, as nearly as possible. 6985. Do you consider both those expressions, namely, the expression " bene- ficial interest," and the expression " clear yearly value,'" as synonymous with the other words in the 10th of George the 4th, that a solvent tenant could be had to give 10 I. a year over and above the rent the party pays?— That is my view of it. 6986. That is the construction which 10 of the judges have put upon those words " beneficial interest"?— Yes; and if I had any doubt of it before, that would have removed it. 6987. Do not you think that the true and the general meaning of the term " beneficial interest" is this, that if the person, a farmer or tenant, after paying his rent, after paying all the expenses and charges of cultivation, and the interest of capital by the produce of his farm, derives 10/. a year over and above the out- goings mentioned, he has a beneficial interest in his farm to that extent?'— It is almost impossible to ascertain that. 6988. But assuming that it can be ascertained that the rent he pays is known, and that all the other expenses can be ascertained, and that, after deducting all those charges from the value of the produce of the entire farm, there is a balance of not less than 10/., do you conceive that such a man has a beneficial interest in his farm to that extent?— I do not conceive he has a beneficial interest in it, unless he could get 10 /. a year for it. 6989. Mr. Lefroy.] Do you think the result of so complicated an account as that could ever have been the criterion that the Legislature meant to apply as a test of qualification in every case ?— I am quite sure it was not; as far as my judgment goes, 1 might depend a great deal upon the size of the man's family ; if he had a number of sons they might do the work for nothing. 6990. Mr. Curry.] My calculation assumes the work, whether done bv his family or by hired labourers, to be in either case counted as a charge. Suppose it be ascertained that the gross produce of a farm is 32 /. a year, that his rent is 10/. a year, and that the expense of labour is ] 0 /. a year more, and that he has himself a profit or a saving, deducting those sums, of 12 /. a year; would you say that that man had a beneficial interest in that farm to that extent ?— If he kept a debit and credit account in that sort of way, and could show satisfactorily that he had, ( but I think it is a very rare instance,) but in that case I do not think he would have what the Reform Act meant. 6991. Would that man, though he has a beneficial interest to the extent of 12/. a year in his farm, get any solvent tenant to give him 10/. a year for that farm over and above the rent he pays ?— If he showed a solvent tenant his debit and credit account, and satisfied him that he kept it correctly, he might. 6992. What profit then would that solvent tenant have to live upon ? He might have his 12/. a year. 6993. If he pays 10 /. of that to another man for the farm, what is left to him then to live upon ?— The support upon the farm from the produce. 6994. That is taken into account, inasmuch as the produce is taken at 32 /., out of which the person taking it has to expend 20 /. Do you think any solvent tenant,