S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E O N F I C T I T I O U S V O T E S , I R E L A N D . 327l? / at the time ?— At the time I did take notes to ' this extent: as the witnesses were produced, upon the back of the list I had, I made the calculations as well as I could m the hurry of the moment; but Mr. Julian did take notes, and I have availed myself of Mr. Julian's notes to refresh my memory; I have from those notes taken down some of the cases. 13705. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.'] Was Mr. Julian attorney for the Conservative side ?— He was. 13706. Is he in attendance here ?— Yes ; those notes he took at the time, and I recollect distinctly they are correct; I am certain they are, to the best of my recollection. 13707. Did you enter into any calculations with reference to this Hugh Carroll's vote, to see whether or not he did possess a beneficial interest upon the data that appeared upon his evidence ?— Yes, I calculated the wages of the father and the two boys to be 151. 12 s.; the rent and tithe amounts to 5/. 17s., making together 21 /. 9s. Supposing the land to be worth what he said himself 30s. an acre, the amount of that would be 12/.; so that if there were any credit given for the labour, the man would be at a loss, instead of a gain ; and if from the 12/. the 5/. 17/. be deducted, the produce would be 71. 3s. as I calculated it. 13708. Supposing it to be 30s. an acre?— Yes. 13709. The rent you have already stated to be 5/. 13s. r— Yes,' and 4s. tithe. 13710. Mr. Hogg.] Did this man state in his evidence the gross amount of the produce of his farm ?— Not as I recollect. 13711. Was that question not asked him ?— Not as I recollect; there were many others that were asked. I am pretty sure he was not asked, for I do not recollect his swearing as to the matter of the value; I am pretty sure he was not asked. 13712. What was the amount of the produce upon the calculation you made deducting the outgoings ?— Supposing 30 s. to be the amount of the return of any description he could receive from the land, there was no necessity for going into the items of what that produce was composed ; for, as 30 s. an acre was the most any man could make of it, I conclude he knew how to till the land, and it was unnecessary to go into the items of which that produce was composed. 13713. You assume that 30 s. an acre is the value of the produce of each acre ?— Lie swore that 30 s. was the most that could be got from it, and there- fore I conclude that was the value. 13714. Mr. O'Connell.] I thought you said 30 s. an acre was the most a tenant could give for it, and live upon it ?— Yes; as well as I recollect, what he said was this, " 30 s. is the utmost penny a man can give for it." 13715. To live upon it ?— I have 110 doubt he meant that, if he did not say so. 13716. Chairman.] You think he meant that 30 s. an acre was all that a man could extract from that land after he had expended capital and labour upon it; then admitting that to be the fact, you have further to deduct from it the 5 /. 17s. he had to pay for rent and tithes ?— No ; perhaps I have not expressed myself to the understanding of the Committee; the way I understood it was this, when a man in Ireland speaks about the most a tenant can pay for land, as I under- stand it, he generally means, " I can pay 30 s. an acre rent;" but a very poor man, when he speaks of it in that way, only means the rent, leaving him no profit from any produce. 13717. Mr. O'Connell.] But leaving him the means of subsistence ?— It can hardly be called the means of subsistence ; he must get the means of subsistence from that or some other mode, but the greater number of very poor persons of this description in Ireland generally make out their subsistence otherwise than from the farms they occupy. 13718. But in this case you cross examined him as to the labour laid out upon the land ?— I did- 13719. And, as 1 understand, in that cross- examination you brought out that he himself was employed upon the land ?—' Yes, and his two boys. 13720. And they did not earn wages anywhere else as labourers; that he was therefore a small farmer, having 110 other resource or livelihoodbut his farmi— Yes. 643. s s 4 13721• Then