V 306 MINUTES O F E V I D E N C E T A K E N B E F O R E T H E T Courtenay Esq. 13236. Mr. Lefroy.') There was no occasion for the party to appear in register- ' ing upon an old certificate Not the least; they very seldom do appear; upon 12 June 1838. the production of the affidavit we claimed the new certificates. 13237. When notices were served for those men did you conceive them to be both alive ?— Certainly. 132 38. And as soon as you found one of them was dead the certificate was cancelled ?— Certainly. 13239. Had there been any concealment upon the subject ?— jNone whatever ; it was in open court, and everybody had a right to make an observation upon any subject they thought proper ; there was 110 concealment about it. 13240. Is there any foundation for saying that the witness who stated this transaction detected the thing ?— Certainly not. 13241. Mr. O'Connell. He only found out the mistake?— I recollect that something of that sort passed at the time, but it was not detected by the party; when we discovered the fact to be so, I tore up the certificate. 13242. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.) Did you know this man ?— I cannot say that I know him personally ; but there were two of the name upon the register, under the 1 oth Geo. 4, and such a notice was served for them. 13243. Was it ascertained at what time the other had died r— Very shortly before the registry. 13244. Chairman.'] In answer to question 8227, " WTas he registered a second time upon his old certificate ? " the witness said, " No ; I detected the thing ; I appealed to the barrister; I was aware that it was the same, and immediately Mr. Courtenay got hold of the document and tore it." The inference from that answer is, that it was with reference to the same man that you were asking two cer- tificates ?— So it would appear, but I have no recollection of anything beyond what I state. 13245. Your belief is, that this whole story arose out of your asking for two cer- tificates for two different individuals bearing the same name, one of whom had died previous to the registry ?— Yes. 13246. And upon his death being properly established, the certificate was de- stroyed which you obtained for that particular party ?— Yes; upon some of my own party saying to me that they believed he was dead, the certificate was cancelled. 13247. Before that time you had no knowledge of his death ?— None whatever. 13248. At all events, it was on behalf of two persons that you applied for the two certificates ?— Yes. 13249. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.] Was the tearing by you at all with a view to cor- ceal the matter, or to baffle inquiry, or was it purely from your having ascertained that the man was dead, and therefore you thought it right that the certificate should be destroyed?— Certainly I thought it right that it should be made public ; that the certificate should be torn in the face of the court. 13250. But you are distinct upon that point, that it was not with a view to baffle inquiry, or to conceal any trick or fraud ?— Certainly; if I wanted to use it in a fraudulent way, 1 would have kept it in my pocket. 13251. Mr. O'Connell.] Then you know how to practise a fraud?— I think that would have been the course that would have suggested itself to a mind evilly disposed. 13252. Mr. I, efroy.~\ Will you look at question 8237, and read the answer to that question ; it is there stated that Mr. Griffith, who was acting for Lord Forbes and Mr. Lefroy, admitted that there were about 60 bad votes upon the register, in consequence of Lady Ross not giving the abatement in time to entitle the tenants to vote ; you attended all the registries, so as to know the qualification of Lady Ross's voters ?— I did ; but I do not see how that could be ; if they were entitled to vote, they must have been upon the register. 13253. He says that there were 60 bad votes on the register, in consequence of Lady Ross not giving the abatement in time to entitle the tenants to vote?— I do not see how that can apply ; if they were entitled to vote, they must have been upon the register. , 13254- But he says they were bad votes ; that Mr. Griffith admitted they were bad votes?— It is quite impossible ; Mr. Griffith was acting with me ; he was not 111 the habit of communicating his mind to the opposite party; and I do not believe that such a thing could have been. ? 13255- Mr. O'Connell. You did not hear it, at all events ?— I did not hear it; out 1 do not see how it can apply, for they were entitled to vote directly after they were registered ; at that time there were no six months necessary before voting. 13256. Chairman.]