S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E ON F I C T I T I O U S V O T E S , I R E L A N D . 251 7 j , l s L' did, from motives of his own, let them in, he merely let such persons in for a Rev. E. M'Gavcr. time, and then turned them out. That rests with himself, and it is not for me to say what were his motives in so doing. 1 Jur> e 1838. 12513. Do you think it would be consistent with the truth of that declaration, that not one of the Roman- catholic profession should get a sod of land from him or Lady Ross, to have let in or given land to any Roman- catholics ?— My answer to that is, that he did not act up to his threat in every instance. 12514. Mr. Beamish.'] Do you believe he made the threat ?— I believe he did. 12515. Mr. Hogg.] Would you rather judge of a man's intentions by what he says or by what he does ?— By what he says and does, both. 12516. Would you judge of a man's intentions by his words or his acts, sup- posing the words were one way and the acts another ?— First when I hear the words I must believe them until I see the contrary; I have a right to believe a man's words until I see the contrary proved, and if I do not see the contrary from his acts, I must believe them. 12517. Chairman. J You have not stated you heard the words from his own lips, but from other parties ?— Yes, who came designedly to tell me. 12518. Now, under the circumstances of your hearing the words through the medium of other parties, do you think, looking to Mr. Robinson's acts, it is quite clear to your mind that these parties told you what was true ?— Indeed I do, 12519. You think Mr. Robinson's acts are in no way contradictory of the declaration stated to you by other parties ?— They are contradictory of the decla- ration they stated to me he made to them. 12520. But that being the case, you still rather believe their declaration than Mr. Robinson's acts ?— I believe their declaration so far as to his threat. I believe he made use of the threat. 12521. Mr. Lefroy.] Has he in any instance since 1833, when the leases of lands fell out upon Lady Ross's estate, left any Roman- catholics upon the estate ? — If my attention were called to this or that particular place, I might say. Would you be pleased to allude to any particular townland ? 12522. You alluded to Mr. Robinson's conduct since 1833 as aground for forming your judgment on the subject as to what was stated to you ?— Yes. 12523. Now, I ask you, in reference to that same conduct, has he in every instance since 1833 turned out Roman- catliolic tenants upon the falling out of leases upon Lady Ross's estate ?— They are not all turned out yet; and 1 cannot say whether he did so in every instance ; I know of instances where he did so at the dropping of leases, but I do not know whether he did so in every instance. My belief is formed with regard to Abydary and Clonbrin; these are in my own parish, and they were served with notices in the lifetime of Lady Ross, I believe in November; she died between that and May ; and they were afterwards told to go on with their tillage. 12524. Are you acquainted with that estate generally, or that one parish ?— I am, as far as the parish of Cashel; and Carrick Edmund, and Kilcommock also. 12525. You have been acquainted with it since 1833?— Yes, and longer. 12526. Now, will you favour the Committee with your belief whether Mr. Robinson has since 1833 uniformly turned out the Roman- catholic tenants upon Lady Ross's estate, upon the falling out of leases ?— He has not uniformly, because he did not in the instances I alluded to, though I understand they have had no leases for some time left; but he turned out families, perhaps since 1830 or 1831 ; he turned out some Catholics, and put Protestants in their places ; and there are others not yet turned out, but who were served with notices about last November. 12527. Then do you mean to state to the Committee, that since 1833 Mr. Robinson has acted upon the principle of that declaration, that not one of the Roman- catholic profession should have a sod of Lady Ross's land ?— He has not acted up to that; but he has since 1831, in the parish of Kilcommock, dis- possessed 31 families. 12528. Besides the 42 families you have mentioned ?— This is another parish; I mentioned 42 families in the parish of Cashel; this is another parish. 12529. In which he has dispossessed 31 families?— Yes, helias turned out 31 families in Kilcommock. 12530. When did he turn them out ?— Since 1831. 12531. At different times ?— Yes. 12532. Totally K K 2