SELECT COMMITTEE ON FICTITIOUS VOTES, IRELAND. 215 12224. With respect to the townland of Lisnana, you said that the Protestants ftev. E. M'Gaver. put in are now there in place of the Roman- catholics; do you mean to say that ' " Protestants are now at this time in possession of those lands, and that the Roman- 29 May 1838. catholics are not?— Yes. 12225. There are no Roman- catholics in the possession of Lisnana in that part from which the Roman- catholics have been dispossessed ?— I should think there are; I do not know any; but I take for granted that there are, for they always take workmen, and persons of that description. 12226. Then why did you say that the Protestants put in are now in the place of the Roman- catholics?— I did state that, and that is the fact, because when the Catholics become cottiers, and have a small portion of land given them, they are not to be considered as being in their places. , 12227. Will you undertake to say that there are not at this moment more Roman- catholics than Protestants in possession of that townland ?— Perhaps there may be, because each man requires a man or two to work his farm, and each of those men may have a house and a garden, perhaps there may be two for one. 12228. Mr. O'Connell.] The Protestant freeholders find it necessary to have labourers, and frequently to have two labourers, each of whom has a house and a family ?— Yes. 12229. tliere being more Catholics than Protestants in the situation of labourers, there are more families of Catholics upon the land than families of Protestants, though the Protestants are in a much superior situation ?— Yes. 12230. Chairman.'] Do you or do you not think that labourers working for persons holding considerable farms are in a better situation than those who hold very small farms themselves ?— They are not; they are never so well off. 12231. In what respect are they worse off?— The general currency of wages of a day- labourer in our neighbourhood is 6d. in the winter season, and 8 d. in the summer ; that is without food ; that is the custom of the country ; that will appear to be trifling. If they take land by conacre, they would pay from 6 to 8 /. per acre; that depends upon the part of the country they are in. If they have but a small farm they will pay dear for it; if they have a house and half an acre they will pay more in proportion than if they have a house and an acre. Then in conse- quence of having a place for their potatoes, they find them cheaper than if they were buying them, and they will have an opportunity, by taking a small holding, of earning wages with other farmers in the neighbourhood when work begins ; in the harvest, for example, when labourers are generally sought for, and they will get upon those occasions more wages than they would in the current year. 12232. Then the result of your answer is this, that labourers at 6d. and 8 d. a day, without their food and without any holdings whatever, can barely subsist?— They subsist miserably ; they cannot perhaps have milk, even butter- milk. 12233. They have hardly wherewithal to keep themselves alive?— And where they have any kind of a large family they are starving. 12234. Mr. O'Connell.] Their food is dry potatoes ?— Yes. 12235. Chairman.] Do not you think, therefore, that the labourer who holds land enough to subsist by, and at the same time has the means of earning wages, is in the best condition ?— He is. 12236. Is he not in a better condition than the small farmer, holding 10 or 15 acres of land generally ?— No; I think he will increase in proportion in prospect and comfort if he has a larger farm ; he will have greater accommodations arising from that farm. 12237. Whatever be his capital?— Whatever be his capital; 110 landlord will give him land unless he knows that he is able to pay the rent. 12238. Does his being able to pay the rent depend simply upon the occupation of the farm, or does it depend upon having capital previously ?— If they have as much as will stock the farm that is sufficient. 12239. they must have some capital wherewith to stock the farm, in order to get on well with eight or ten acres of land ?— Of course. 12240. Supposing a party has no capital, is not he better off when he holds a small quantity of land, and at the same time works as a day- labourer, than if he attempts without capital to take a large farm ?— Certainly ; for if he attempts with- out capital, he will soon be dispossessed. 12241. Mr. O'ConnelL] Having land, is he not likely to be able to procure stock by getting time for the payment, paying a higher price in consequence ?— Yes. 643." H 11 3 12242. So