\ 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. E. M'Gaver. 12082. Do not you think there was too dense a population upon land very generally in Ireland some years ago?—- The population is dense. 29 May 1838. 12083. Do not you think the lands were getting into an exceedingly bad condi- tion by reason of their being over- peopled in Ireland ?— I am aware that there were many lands that required improvement with reference to building houses and drain- ing, and so forth. 12084. And with respect to having the farms larger and more substantial than they used to be ?— It sometimes happened that those who had small farms have them in better condition than the very large farms. 12085. Has not that in Ireland been, generally speaking, one of the causes why the country has not been improved, and why the people are very wretched, that the farms have been subdivided into very small portions?— I do not think it is the cause, because I think they are improving as to their knowledge and industry every day ; they have a better knowledge of farming now than they had formerly ; I do not think it arises from extensive farms. 12086. You think that an estate would be likely to be in as good condition where the tenants held an acre or two, or a fraction of an acre, as if it was divided into substantial farms?— I think it will produce more by being divided into small farms, than let in large ones. 12087. And that it will be in as improved a state ?— It may not be in so beau- tiful a state, but it will be more profitable. 12088. And that the condition of the peasantry will be better by the land being parcelled out into those small lots ?— A rich man will not confine himself to a small farm as a poor man will do; and a poor man cannot be so comfortable as a rich man. 12089. Do you mean to say that the removing of those tenants at that period was not done with any view to improve the estate ?— I believe it was done for the purpose of establishing a Protestant colony. My reason is this: Mr. Moffat, who was the agent, was well known to be so disposed ; he was agent to Mr. Jessop, of Dury Hall; he encouraged Mr. Jessop to allow him to do the same upon his pro- perty. He did so. Mr. Jessop, after some time, saw that he was doing wrong, and he said that it was better for him to have Catholic tenants who would pay him their rent, than to have others that would eat all that would grow upon the farms. A fterwards the Protestants went in arrear, and he ejected them, and some Catholic tenants got it since. 12090. Then Protestant tenants eat all that comes from the land?— That was Mr. Jessop's view of it. I think they eat more than the Catholics do, for thev have better means, and they are more tolerated. 12091. And Mr. Jessop ejected all those Protestant tenants ?— They went in arrear, and he consequently deprived them of their farms. 12092. And you know that all the Roman- catholics who were evicted before did not owe any rent ?— They are generally good tenants. What I state with re- ference to Mr. Jessop, I had it from himself. 12093. With respect to the Roman- catholic tenants that were turned out upon Lord Lorton's estate, do you mean to say that they owed no rent?— I knew but one family in that townland, and I know that that family owed no rent; I could not say as to the others. 12094. You know that 25 years ago that family owed no rent?— Yes; that it was not for non- payment of rent that they were turned out. 12095. You do not know, with respect to any of the rest, whether thev owed rent or not?— No. 12096. How many were they in number?— Looking at the townland, I saw that it was densely populated, but the number I never counted. 12097. You do not know to what extent arrears might run with respect to that body of Roman- catholic tenants?— As far as regards general report they owed no rent; and it is generally known in any neighbourhood whether tenants be evicted for non- payment or for non- title. 12098. Will you undertake to say that none of those Roman- catholic tenants owed any rent when they were put out?— My conviction is that they were not turned out for non- payment of rent, but for non- title. 12099. Do you say that they were not, any of them, turned out for non- payment of rent ?— I cannot say as to any one ; but the general feeling in the neighbourhood is a good criterion to go by with reference to tenants, and the general feeling of the country