2jf> MINUTES QV EVTDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE namely, a very great reduction of the expense to which the county has been subjected. Have you a regular physician attached to the hospital establishment in the county J of Limerick?— The medical establishment has appeared to me always dispro- ,< 31 May.) portioned to the necessity of the case ; we have a physician and a surgeon ; and I am perfectly convinced, that the duty would be as well administered by one medical . officer only, namely, by the resident apothecary of the neighbouring hospital, whom we. employ to compound the medicines, but having found those appointments . already made, the superintending committee had some difficulty in dealing with tlie subject. What is the salary allowed to the physician ?— It was 50/. for the physician, and 50/. for the surgeon, and their duties at that period were precisely the same as they now are, and no difficulty was found in procuring the attendance of sufficient officers . at those salaries; but the grand jury, of their . own accord, thought it advisable to double the emoluments of both officers, and they now amount to the sum of ,100 /. or guineas, I forget which ; to each, but by the new Act, which is in progress in Parliament, the whole of the medical expenses will be reduced to 80/. a year, which I am convinced will be amply sufficient to, pay for the attendance, and to pro- cure the medicines necessary for the. prison hospital. All the evidence you have hitherto given applies to the county of Limerick prison, not to the city ?— Yes. Has any arrangement been made in the city of Limerick, for procuring anew gaol?— There have been improvements carried 011 to a considerable extent in the city of Limerick prison, but from the mistaken notion of endeavouring to reform 41 bad gaol in place of building a new and good one, the improvements which have taken place have been ineffectual, and there cannot be a worse managed prison than the city of Limerick prison was when I last visited it. You have spoken of the system of checking the expenses of medicines by reference to Apothecaries Hall; do not you conceive that it is a principle vicious in itself, that • one apothecary should be appointed by law to tax the bills of another?— I have no manner of doubt of it; I am quite convinced that that check is a nominal one only. Have you in conjunction with the other gentlemen, prepared an annual report of fhe county of Limerick prison?— An annual Report has been prepared, not by me, but by a very intelligent gentleman, with whom I have had the honour to act on the superintending committee. What has been the extent of attention bestowed by the committee to the affairs of that gaol ?— Nothing could have been more unremitting and active than the per- formance of their duties by the superintending committee; and I have no hesitation in saying, that it is impossible to hope for any real reform in the internal discipline of a prison, or any economical administration of the establishment, so long as you merely trust to paid officers, without introducing the superior mild control of a superintending committee of gentlemen, appointed by the grand jury, and pledged Jby character as well as by engagement, to the discharge of the trust which they have undertaken to fulfil. Such gentlemen have been easily found in the county of Limerick ?— We have had no difficulty in filling up the number of our superintending committee, nor of procuring their attendance: and from what I have reason to know has occurred in the county of Cork, the same facility has there been found, and the same beneficial consequences have been derived from the establishment of a superintending com- mittee for that county prison. Then the Committee are to understand that it is your decided opinion, that a great portion of the benefits derived from the gaol establishment of Limerick, is in consequence of the superintendence of an unpaid committee?— Notonly a great part, but the whole; I am convinced that the intire expenditure of public money, to which the county has been subject, would have been utterly useless; so far as the future administration of the gaol was concerned, and that the efforts of grand juries and paid officers would have been defeated in every branch of their operation, had it not been for the efforts and superintendence of an unpaid committee. You spoke of a Report having been prepared by the superintending committee; do you happen to have a copy of that report ?— Yes, I have. Will you have the goodness to hand it in to the Committee ?— [ It was delivered in and read} as follows:] T. S. Rice, Esq. a Member. < c REPORT