/ / i J J SELECT COMMITTEE ON FICTITIOUS VOTES, IRELAND. 29 7019. Mr. Lefroy.] Is not that " something" to be made by the expenditure T. Courtenay, Esq. of capita], and by other means than the mere produce of the farm, without the —— expenditure of capital ?— Certainly. 27 March 1838. 7020. So that it is not of necessity that he is to expect to make out of the mere natural produce of the farm 10/. a year more, but by cultivating- that land, and employing his capital, he expects to make a profit over and above the 10 I. a year? — lie must have interest for the money expended, and therefore it is that I say a calculation of that sort would be hard to be arrived at, and it would be a standard for the franchise that would be very difficult to apply. 7021. Mr. Hogg.] What is the number of bad votes now upon the register of the 10/. voters?— I think I stated that on all sides there were 350, or thereabouts. 7022. Do you think that any one of those 350 that you term 10/. bad voters, would have a clear surplus of 10/. after the calculation was gone into, that was put by Mr. Curry ; that is, do you think that any one of the 350 would have a surplus of 10/. after paying the 10/. rent, and after paying all the expenses of cropping, cultivating, and stock and labour?— If you allow them to put a price on the victuals they consume, they might. 7023. Mr. 0' Connell.~\ The victuals produced by the farm ?— Yes. 7024. Mr. French.] In fact, 10/. a year would not support a family of any moderate size if they had to buy their provisions?— No. 7025. Mr. Lefroy.] Then, in fact, any man that supports his family upon a farm, however small, he would, according to that principle, have a 10/. franchise ? — Exactly so; if a man has any sort of large family, I should say 10/. a year would be consumed in their support; to be sure, they do not live comfortably. 7026. Mr. French.] Do you think there is any person, having a holding from a landlord of 15 acres of land, that has not a beneficial interest of 10/.?— I am sure there are many men holding 15 acres of land, direct from the landlord, who have not an interest of 10/. a year. 7027. Do you mean according to Mr. Curry's definition of the term " benefi- cial interest"'?— I mean according to my own definition of it. 7028. Do you allow any calculation for the Hour grown upon the farm, and consumed by the family?— I do not. 7029. If you take that into consideration, it may be presumed that they have a beneficial interest?-— They must have. 7030. Mr. Hogg.'] But not excluding that?— No. 7031. Chairman. J Are there farms let of the amount of 15 acres, not cultivated by the taker of the farm ?— No, they generally cultivate those small holdings themselves. 7032. Suppose a large farm was taken by a person, do you consider the amount of subsistence of the labourers employed upon that farm as part of the value of the farm ?— I do not. 7033. Will not the same principle be applicable to the support of the taker of a small farm, so far as that principle is concerned, as with regard to the taker of a large farm, and his labourers?— The same principle, I think, should apply. 7034. Would you consider as beneficial interest to the farmer, the support of his labourers upon a large farm ?— I would not. 7035. Must not the necessary deduction from that answer be, that it is not a beneficial interest to the occupier when the occupier puts himself in the position of the labourer, and is supported from the produce of the farm ?— I conceive so. 7036. Mr. O'Connell.] Do not you perceive this distinctly, that no man will pay 20 I. a year for a farm, that dees not expect to profit by paying it?— No man will take a farm I think with his eyes open, and pay 20 /. a year, who does not expect either to keep his family in comfort or to keep them in some way or other. 7037. That is, to make a profit to that extent out of the farm ?— As to laying by anything out of it I will not say ; I think the way they take land in Ireland gene- rally is, that, if they can support their family and clothe them, that is rather what they look for, than making money to put by out of it. 7038. The question was not whether they meant to save money, but whether there is not much more in value than the 20 /. a year that the man pays for the farm ?— They do in many instances. 7039. Do not they save money thus, that if the man had not his farm of 20/. a year, he would have to pay for the diet and clothing of his family in money 1— 643. E 3 He