353 M I N U T E S OF E V I D E N C E T A K E N BEFORE T I IE G. Battersby, Esq. the existing state of the law as superinducing this tendency to false swearing ? — That is what I think. 26 June 1838. , 4307. And therefore, I infer, you would think it a great improvement in the state of the law if instead of allowing the individual himself, who is interested, by his own evidence or the evidence of his friends to raise his interest in the land so as to make it a good qualification, instead of that to substitute some standard extrinsic of the voter and his evidence, and some standard by which there would be some countervailing influence over the man, so that while on the one hand he would be desirous of possessing the elective franchise, on the other he would not be desirous of subjecting himself to taxing or rating ?— As far as I understand the question, that is what I intended to be the effect of my evidence. 14308. That you would think it an improvement to have a standard dehors the voter himself ?— Yes. 14309. And some standard which would furnish him with a motive for not overrating the amount ?— A standard that would ascertain the value upon an inquiry, different and distinct from an inquiry as to the value with a view to voting. 14310. Mr. O'Connell.] Then you are not of opinion that anything should be done to tempt a man to lose his franchise, in order not to pay rate which he ought in point of fact to pay ?— I do not know what answer I ought to give to that question. 14311. Do you think it would be right to squeeze a man out of the franchise by the temptation of paying less rates than his land would be fairly liable to if fairly valued ?— Any test by which you touch the franchise would be open to that objection ; but still I think testing it by such a standard would be fair, and a great improvement upon the present system ; I think there might be an answer to that difficulty, because where it is the interest of other persons to prevent the slipping out of the liability to the rate he will be kept there whether he will or not. 14312. Supposing the landlords countenance the lower rating in order to get their tenants out of the franchise ?— Then they confer a pecuniary benefit upon the tenant at the expense of the public. 14313. Do you think an Irish peasant has the means of appealing from that under- rating ?— I think nothing could be fairer with regard to the tenants than that, because if the landlord can allow him to slip out of it by giving him a benefit of 2 s. or 3s., which would be the most, and the tenant values his right of voting at only those 2 s. or 3s., I think he ought not to be prevented getting out of it at that price. 14314. Why do you say 2 s. or 3 s. ?— Because there is hardly any rate that can be very high ; that can amount to more than that. Suppose you take the tithe composition, it would not be so much; the poor- rate, I suppose, would be 3 s. an acre. 14315. The amount of tithe composition in Ireland is very little more than 500,000 I. a year; the amount of the poor- rate, upon a moderate calculation, ought to be a million ?— I am uninformed upon the subject; I can form no opinion. 14316. Do you not think it will be a heavy rate, if, in addition to the tithes which exist now, twice the amount of the present tithes are imposed upon the land occupiers in Ireland ?— Yes, a very heavy rate; in some places enor- mous; according to my recollection, in Kilkenny the tithe composition is as high as 5 . v. an acre, in some parishes. I am not sure that it did not amount to 8.?. an acre. M317- Chairman.] What was the rent where that was the composition?— The rent varied from 20 <?. to 40 .5. an acre ; but where they paid the 40s. I recollect the great majority swore they could not make the 40out of the land; they were obliged to both pay the rent and support themselves by labour elsewhere. 14318. Mr. O'Connell.'] Were you a commissioner ?— No, I acted for the Attorney- general in 1832 ; I think under the 2 Will. 4, when the 60,000 I. was given to the clergy : I saw a great deal of Kilkenny at that time, for I think 1 had to sustain 9,600 cases in that county. 14319. Do