353 M I N U T E S OF E V I D E N C E T A K E N BEFORE TIIE 14273. In some parts, I believe, tliey take a very active part in election mat- G. Battersby, Esq. ^ ?_ They do; I have seen them exercise a good deal of influence. ~~~ * g g 14274. Is there any more powerful influence than that of the Roman- catholic 2 une 1 3 • ^ oy'over their flocks ?— When I spoke of the influence used by the lloman- cf, tlH) lic clergy I did not mean to confine it, or to apply it to the body of the Roman- catholic clergy as clergy; but where there is a clergyman who unites in his own person the clerical character, together with that of a patriot, or public leader lie has the greatest influence that any individual in Ireland has. 142 75. When the clerical character is superadded to that of a demagogue and agitator ?— Yes, in my opinion, if a clergyman of the Roman- catholic persuasion in Ireland goes along with the passions and prejudices of the people, he can lead them to anything ; but if he opposes the popular feeling, I think he has very little influence, 14276. Now, you were asked about landlords' lives being attempted, did you hear of any case in the county of Leitrim where a Mr. Ellis was fired at in the presence of his tenantry in broad day ?— I have heard of that. 14277. Did you hear he was fired at in the broad day, when 50 of his own tenantry were present ?— I heard of Mr. Ellis being fired at, but I have no recol- lection of the circumstances. 14278. Did you happen to hear there was any effectual step taken since towards bringing any person to justice who was guilty of that ?— I am wholly uninformed upon the subject. 14279. Now, you stated the existing state of the law was not only a disgrace to the country, but was a great inducement to perjury ?— I think it is. 14280. You think then there is false swearing at the registering sessions ?— I think there is a vast deal of untrue swearing, but it is exceedingly difficult in Ireland for any man to say where the influence of strong prejudice ends, and corrupt, knowing false swearing, begins. 14281. But although you cannot say, in the particular instance, where that line of demarcation is to be drawn, you have no doubt that, in point of fact, there is often a statement on oath by the party knowing it not to be true ?— Certainly, it prevails to a great extent. The practice in Ireland, when they adopt the first 01* second test I have stated to the Committee, is, that the claimant comes upon the table and swears he holds so many acres of land, and that that land is worth so much, 10/. to him; that he would not take so much a year for his interest in it, and he has been offered 10/. for it; and then he is invariably provided with as many persons as he chooses to swear they offered it to him; and that is true to this extent, that where those tests are adopted lie has been offered it; for they go without any intention of fulfilling the offer, in order to come and swear that they have offered it, and upon that evidence the barrister must decide as he best can. 14282. Do you mean to say that persons go without any intention whatever to take a farm, and offer the occupying tenant 10/. for it, merely for the pur- pose of making evidence which may be used before the registering barrister afterwards ?— I have seen it done a thousand times and more. 14283. Now, in your judgment, is not that actually committing perjury:— If I did it I should consider myself to be guilty of perjury ; they do not view it in the same light. 14284. In point of morals, can there be a doubt that conveying upon the oath of the party to the judge or hearer of the evidence, as matter of fact and truth that which is false, is perjury ?— I think it is, in point of fact and mo- rality ; but then when I say so I am sure, in the majority of cases where it is done, the parties do not view it in the same light I do. 14285. Then that must be because they have not the same standard of morals that you have ?— It is that they do not interpret the moral law in the same way that I do. 14286. Mr. O'connell.] N ow, when a witness comes, and swears lie has offered 10/. profit to the occupier, you, being counsel, cross- examine him?— Yes, 14287. Do you not ask him whether he would or not really give that money if the tenant accepted his offer ?— I do, and he generally swears that he would. 14288. Then he proves, not only that he has made the offer, but he swears it is not a colourable offer ?— He does, whenever he is asked the question; that is the common course. 14289. Now'j