S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E ON F I C T I T I O U S VOTES, IRELAND. 349 i and I know that from the influence of landlords and others there are very few G. Battersby Esa poor persons who can exercise a judgment for themselves. If the country is quiet, so that a landlord is not afraid of being shot, he has an influence and if 2( j June l838- the country is disturbed, and the landlord has not that influence' others have it. 14257- Did you ever hear of a landlord being shot because he influenced the elective franchise ?— What I intended to say was this : if the landlord as they have been m the habit of doing, wants to compel the tenants to vote with him if they refuse to do it, or vote against him, he turns them out. Now if he does that they shoot him, in some places. 14258. But whether it be for political motives, or motives of gain, whenever tenants are turned out in Ireland, it has happened very frequently, indeed with a horrible frequency, that they have killed the incoming tenants ?— The usual course is that they kill the incoming tenants, and the landlord, if they can catch him. 14259. You say that is the practice?— I think it is. 14260. Do you remember the case of a landlord being killed ?— I think I have heard of some. I speak of matters which are not within my own knowledge ; but I saw in a newspaper last week of their intention to kill a landlord ( Mr! Uniacke) in Westmeath. 14261. But they did not kill him ?— No. 14262. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.'] Did they make the attempt?— I do not know? there was a conspiracy which, I suppose, was evidenced by some overt act, but it was in the newspapers. 14263. Mr. O'Connell.] You do not remember the name of any landlord who has been killed ?— No, but I can safely say that I know many landlords who would make their tenants vote for them if they were not afraid of being shot. 14264. That is, they would turn them out if they voted against them ?— Yes, and that is the only restraint upon them. 14265. Mr. Beamish.] Do you think that is a right influence of the land- lord ?— No, I think it is a wrong one; and, therefore, when the honourable Member asked me about the amount of the franchise, I turned in my mind the amount which would enable a man to be free from the landlord's influence, and other influences; and when he is liable to be turned out he is not free from the landlord's influence. 14266. Mr. O'Connell.] Do you think a man having 20/. a year is free from his landlord's influence ?— I think he would if he were a solvent tenant, setting aside those persuasive influences which any man may be open to. 14267. Supposing the land is let at 100/. a year, and the tenant has a clear profit of 20/. a year over that 100/., is not that man as much in the power of his landlord as a man who has only 5/. a year profit upon 10/. a year rental?— Certainly not, for this reason: that a man who has 20/. profit in Ireland can live upon half that, and set the landlord at defiance ; but a man who has but 5 /. profit cannot live upon the 5 /., and if some extraneous means be not offered to support him, he will be at the landlord's mercy. 14268. He will have these extraneous means whether the landlord chooses it or not, for instance, his labour ?— Employment I believe to be scarce in many places in Ireland. 14269. Labour is plentiful ?— There are plenty willing and able to labour; but there are a great number, and a large preportion, who cannot find anything to employ themselves upon. 14270. Labour is plentiful and employment is scarce ?— Yes. 14271. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.] What is that other influence you have been speaking of; you have been dilating upon the landlord's influence; what is the other influence which you have been speaking of, which predominates in the provinces you have been interrogated about, Munster, Leinster, and Connaught.-' — There is the influence of what some call demagogues, and others patriots, who usually have a considerable number of persons at their command, and who will visit the displeasure of whatever leader they happen to be connected with upon everybody who offends them; every village almost has a person who is usually called a leader, and who does keep these persons under his orders. 14272. Do the Roman- catholic clergy in those three provinces exercise a con- siderable elective influence over the members of their flocks ?— Certainly. 643. Y Y 3 14273< In