V320 M I N U T E S O F E V I D E N C E T A K E N B E F O R E T HE G. Battersby, Esq. considerable difficulty, because that has given rise to the matter upon which the judges have expressed the opinions about which I have been already asked. 2( 5 June 1838. 14240. Are your own opinions favourable to the extension of the franchise, or to the' limiting of it to a few in number?— That is a subject which I have never considered, and I am unable to say what my opinion would be if I were to consider it. I think the greater the number of persons who can exercise a judgment and opinion of their own, who are entitled to the franchise and are put upon the register, the better. I think every man who is independent, and can form an unbiassed and fair judgment for himself, ought to be a voter. 14241. Then, if the franchise were clearly defined, the opportunity for liti- gation and perjury would be taken away, to a considerable extent?— Very much. 14242. And it would be so, whether that definition made it 20 /. or 30/. a year ?— £. 20 a year, or 30 /. a year, ascertained as the amount is now ascer- tained, would not mend the matter, I think. 14243. Is not that, because at present it is unascertained rather than ascer- tained, from the uncertainty; if you apply the same uncertainty to 30/. a year, you do not improve the thing at all?— No, 1 do not think you mend the case. 14244. But the way to mend the case is to take away the uncertainty, and give it a strict definition ?— Yes ; I think, if the uncertainty were removed, the precise amount, though it were a few pounds more or less, would not be of great consequence to either party ; and, as I understand it, the dispute at pre- sent between the Liberal party, that is as the Solicitor- general and others argue, and the opinions of the Judges and the Conservative party as they argue, is in strictness but 1L, taking the case of a 10/. occupier. 14245. There is but 1 /. between them ? — I think so. 14246. If the franchise were clearly defined at 10/., distinctly defined, sup- posing for a moment by a rate or some extrinsic matter, by the grand jury cess or rating, or the general survey of the country, it would take away all the pre- sent difficulties, just the same as if it were defined at 20/.?— It would; and I think further, if the franchise were now ascertained and defined by rating, so as to make it certain and unquestionable that a claimant for 5 /. had a bond - fide profit for 5/., it would at this moment remove hundreds of voters from the register. 14247. That is your opinion ?— Yes. 14248. But are you quite certain it would be of use to have it defined, and though the definition was as low as 5/. it would take away the present tempta- tions to contradictory swearing, consequently to perjury, and the doubts and uncertainties which at present exist ?— Undoubtedly to define it at all would be of the utmost value. 14249. You have not made up your own mind which you would prefer, tak- ing your knowledge of Ireland as it stands, having it at 5 /. or 20/., it being clearly defined, for example, by rating ?— I think defining it at 20/. would be unreasonable, and exclude many who ought to have a right to vote. 14250. Mr. Serjeant Jackson.] Do you think 10/. would?— I think 10/. a very fair amount. 14251. A 10?. bond fide interest in the tenant?— Yes. 14252. Mr. O'Connell.] Do you think a 10/. bond fide interest in Ireland a fair amount, considering that in England, the richer country, every 40.?. free- holder has a right to vote ; would you think a 5 /. clear and well- defined bond fide interest too low ?— I think it would, for this reason, that a man who has only hi. could not be an independent man ; he could not live by the land he occupied. 14253- Are you aware that a man who has but a 40,9. freehold in England is entitled to vote ?— In England these smaller holders are not subject to so much influence as they are in Ireland. 14254. Do you not think they are subject to the landlord's influence in England ?— Not so much. 14255^ Do you not think they are subject also to clerical influence in Eng- land ?— They are, certainly, but not so much. 14256. You have not had any experience in the English counties ?— No, I have 110 knowledge of it, except from common report, or from newspapers occa- sionally. I am not competent to speak of England, but I know Ireland well, and