/ J / SELECT COMMITTEE ON FICTITIOUS VOTES, IRELAND. 27 tenant, contemplating a return of only 2 I. a year, which is all that would be left T. Courtmay ESQ after paying the 10 /., would give the previous tenant 10 /. a year for the farm ? —- No, in that way I am satisfied he would not. 27 March 1838. 6995. Mr. Lefroy.] You said that the judges put the same construction upon the " beneficial interest" as had been put upon the 10 I. value, under the 10th of Geo. 4 ; was not one of those judges, Judge Crampton, who had been concerned in bringing in and passing the Reform Act r— Yes, in framing this Act; he was solicitor- general for Ireland at the time, and I suppose that he was aware of the intention of its provisions. 6996. Mr. Hogg.] Have you heard any assistant barrister in Longford apply the principle involved in the question of Mr. Curry in admitting persons ?— Not exactly in that calculation, but I have heard the barrister say, that though the man had not made out an interest of 10 /. according to the solvent tenant test, yet he felt himself bound to admit him. Perhaps the calculation would come to 7 I. or 8 I. a year; I have heard him say that his test was not that of a solvent tenant, and he would admit him. 6997. Did he say that his test was the principle involved in Mr. Curry's question?— Not exactly as Mr. Curry expressed it; it is termed " beneficial interest,"' and upon the meaning of which hangs the reading of the phrase. 6998. Chairman.] Was the labour of the man involved in any of Mr. Tighe's decisions as to the beneficial interest?— No, it was a general question. The minutias of the labour or the solvency of the man was not gone into in that way, for a farm to a prudent man might be worth a great deal more than it would be to an imprudent man ; a spendthrift might drink the profit over and above the benefit of the labour, whereas a prudent man might have it, till it to lay by, and therefore it could be no possible criterion. 6999. Would the skill of the occupier be considered as part of the beneficial interest, in Mr. Tighe's opinion ?— I should think it must. 6990*. That is to say, he would not consider a tenant who knew not how to cul- tivate his farm to the best advantage as possessing as great a beneficial interest as a tenant who knew how to cultivate his farm to the best advantage ?— Just so ; it must depend entirely upon that. 6991*. Then, in point of fact, he made the qualification, in his view of the ques- tion, depend upon the ability of the occupier rather than upon the real value of the occupation?— Certainly, in my view of it it must be so, for he did not take any mode of ascertaining the real value of the property. 6992*. But he merely took that value which the man, by his own industry or by his own skill, might extract from the land ?— Just so. C993*. That was his mode of explaining the words " beneficial interest"?— Yes. 6994*. Mr. Hogg.] Can you state generally what Mr. Tighe's principle was?—• Mr. Tighe's general principle is to take as liberal a view as possible of the words " beneficial interest," and to give the occupier the full benefit of everything he could make by the farm, without reference to what the real value of it would be if it was let over again ; that is his general principle. 1 should not say that he goes so closely into the calculation as Mr. Curry's question would lead to, but if a man is able to satisfy him that he has what he calls a " beneficial interest," he admits him without further proof. 6995*. What is it that he calls a beneficial interest?— What it is worth to the man; not what it would be worth to another, but what it may be worth to the man himself. 6996*. Mr. Lefroy.] He considers it sufficient if the man says that farm is worth to me 10 /. a year ?— If he says it is worth to him 10/. a year, Mr. Tighe conceives that the man is the best judge of that; I heard him say so. 6997*. Mr. Hogg.] Then Mr. Tighe's principle was to make it depend upon the opinion of the individual occupant, and not upon the market value of the com- modity ?— Certainly, that has been Mr. Tighe's principle. 6998*. Mr. O'Connell.] What do you call the market value of the commodity ? — What the farm would set for in the market to a solvent tenant, over and above the rent at which it is let; he has declared himself that that is not a good criterion ; I have heard him say so. 6999*. Mr. Hogg.] He allows each individual claimant to form his own estimate of the value?— He does. , ^ 7000. Mr. O'Connell.] They are upon their oaths, and swear to it?— They do; I have heard him take the affidavit, and read it for the man, and ask him is he 643. E 2 satisfied