S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E O N F I C T I T I O U S V O T E S , I R E L A N D . 259L ? / 12670. In how many cases ?— In one townland lie made 15 or 20 acres in Rev. every farm as far as the land went; perhaps there were 240 01* 250 acres. 12671- 2. What I want to know is, in how many individual instances do you 1 think these gentlemen have created votes in the way you have described ?— They are to a great extent in Mr. Luke White's property, for, with the excep- tion of cotters and day labourers, they are all small freeholds. 12673. But do you believe that Mr. White or Mr. Bonynga have made as many as five freeholders ?— Yes, more than 50. 12674. They have made more than 50 by this arrangement?— Yes, the Mr. Whites alone have. 12675. Not so many as 100, perhaps:— I ought to know the number, though I did not calculate it; the two Mr. Whites alone have a great number, but Mr. Bonynga has not. 12676. From 90 to 100, you think probably, the three gentlemen together; do you think they have ?— Mr. Bonynga has not a great number; in the next parish to me he has but two or three, I think. 12677. The question is, how many votes in your opinion have been put upon the register by the means of taking a lower rent than the real value of the land which the landlord might insist upon ?— The late Mr. M; Evoy made leases with the same view; Mr. O'Farrell did the same lately; it was lately he made leases. 12678. You mean to say, in all these cases the parties took a nominal instead of a real rent, for the purpose of enabling the tenant to be placed upon the register ?— I do not consider they took a nominal rent; I consider, though they let it at so much under what they could get, they let it at what would be fair to enable the tenant to live comfortably upon the land. 12679. You then think, though a party may take 32s. an acre, when the land is worth AOs., he is taking as much as he ought to take, with a view to the comfort of his tenant ?— Yes, I do, if he wishes to be considered a humane landlord. 12680. Then all these abatements of which you have been talking, in point of fact, are not abatements as between a proper landlord and a proper tenant, but between a screwing landlord and a tenant who is well screwed up ?— Yes, the difference between a screwing landlord and a liberal landlord. 12681. When you say that Mr. White and the other gentleman took so much less than the value of the land, you mean to say they might squeeze out of some unfortunate tenant the 40 s., whereas they chose to let it at 32s. to make their tenants live in a comfortable manner ?— Yes, a hard landlord letting his land would not let it at those terms. 12682. He would get Ss. an acre more than Mr. Bonynga gets ;— Yes, he would get 28 s. an acre more. 12683. But still you do not believe that a landlord, looking at the proper condition of the tenant, ought to require more than Mr. Bonynga now makes ? — That is another thing, what he ought to do ; I believe very few would have let their lands so very cheap as Mr. Bonynga has done; he might get more, and it was a stretch of generosity to let his lands so low. 12684. You describe him as a generous landlord?— Yes. 12685. And you also describe the Mr. Whites as generous landlords?— I do. 12686. But, generally speaking, what you mean by the generosity of a landlord is, where the landlord does not screw his tenant up to the starvation point ?— I do not call him generous if he goes so near to the mark as that; he would not deal generously with his tenant if it is only a consideration of a few shillings ; I should not judge of his generosity in that way. 12687. Mr. Lefroy.\ Since the Roman- catholic clergy have taken so very direct a part in politics, and in influencing the tenants as to their line of voting, has not this system of changing Roman- catholic for Protestant tenants greatly increased in the county ?— It has greatly increased. 12688. Even with liberal landlords?— Yes; those who were formerly con- sidered liberal became illiberal, and so acted, as far as I can learn; for some of them declared it, that they agreed among each other not to give land to Catholics. 12689. You know Mr. Lovell Edgeworth ?— Yes. L L 2 12690. He