SELECT COMMITTEE ON FICTITIOUS VOTES, IRELAND. 215 12628. Mr. Milnes Gaskell.] Are the men who occupy small holdings usually - wealthier men than the men who hold larger ones ?— Certainly not, usually. 12629. I11 these cases they were?— Those that were turned out were the more comfortable. 12630. Mr. Lefroy Will you mention the names of some of those rich farmers who you say were turned out, and who you state were more solvent and responsible tenants than those brought in ?— I will: John Farrell, Peter Connor, James Mulvihill, Thomas Mulvihill, John Finneran. I might go 011 with more if I had the list before me. 12631. Besides these, there were others also; all of whom you state to have been more solvent than the tenants that were introduced ?— Yes. 12632. That you state, of your own knowledge, as a matter of fact?— Yes; I know their circumstances well. 126) 33. You know the relative circumstances of all these parties ?— Yes. 12634. So as to compare them fairly?— Yes; I could even state they were more solvent and better tenants than Montford who got the 40 acres. 1263,5. They were more solvent and better tenants than the wealthiest of those who got the farms in their places ?— Yes; as to one of them I mentioned before, Wilson, his uncle ( I did not know his father much) was in a comfortable state; and I stated if he took after his friends, he ought to be an intelligent and industrious farmer. 12636. I am speaking of his substance?— I make that exception ; I do not know what substance his father gave him on coming there. 12637. But, with the exception of Wilson, you state that all the farmers who were turned out were more substantial than those who came in ?— Yes, with the exception of Wilson. 12638. Mr. Hogg.] You do not know the details and arrangements with sufficient accuracy to know the quantity of land the tenants introduced had ?— I only state from my belief, from seeing the farms; each farm generally came down to the road;' one portion of the tenants get land on one side of the road, and the others upon the other. 12639. But your knowledge is not sufficiently precise to enable you to speak with tolerable accuracy, even by guess, to the size of the farms ?— No ; but that is my belief. 12640. Have you not seen them for a considerable time ?— No ; I lived in the parish at that time. 12641. And you saw them?— Yes; anybody passing the road would see them, for they all come down to the road. 12642. And you have a tolerable knowledge as to the acreage ?— Yes, I think it is about that; some may be less than that. 12643. Did you observe the way the new tenants treated the land and cul- tivated it ?— I did; and I saw they were obliged, 011 one occasion I was there, to take their corn and thrash it in the open field, for the purpose of meeting the demand of the landlord. 12644. I believe the system of farming among the cotters in Ireland is not the most beneficial for themselves or the landlord, or the land?— It is better for themselves than if they had no land. 12645. But I speak of the system as contrasted with the best farming of England or Scotland; their system of farming is not very judicious ?— Generally speaking, with Irish farmers, they have not the same system they have in England. I saw England, and I did not see Scotland; but, generally speaking, with the exception of the neighbourhood of Dublin, they do not spend the same money in Ireland, or take the same trouble in farming, as in England. 12646. But though their system might not be so good in Ireland, yet, like all other parts of the world, they are attached to it, and are strongly impressed with the idea of its being what is best suited to themselves and the land ?— Yes ; it is difficult to make them alter their system. 12647. I do not put it as to Ireland alone, but all people are very apt to be prejudiced in favour of their own system ?— Yes, they are. 12648. And they have a pretty strong opinion that any change introduced, though it may be better in reality, is not better for themselves; they are apt to be hostile to it ?— Yes, particularly if they suffer by the change. 12649. But though it may be an absolute improvement to the country at large, it is natural that people should be a good deal opposed to it ?— Yes. 643. L L 12650. And