SELECT COMMITTEE ON FICTITIOUS VOTES, IRELAND. 215 * r acting as leaders, I understood they did not swear them ; they gave them a new Rev. E. M'Gaver. ticket. 11933. They had been sworn in originally?— Yes. 25 May 1838. 11934. And then when the society thought proper, for its purposes, to change its signs, or the tickets by which they knew each other, in order to make the society select, those who were old members were not sworn in again ?— Yes. 11935. But those who were newly admitted were sworn ?— That is what I understood. 11936. Then did you not inquire of that man who was a Ribbonman, and had a certificate ?— He formerly was. 1* 937• Was he not at the time he got the certificate ?— No; he got a peep at a man's ticket: he had confidence in him, and showed it to him; he did not know whether he would become a member or not, and he took the opportunity of getting a copy of the certificate, and showed it to me. 11938. Then he got it at the lodge, I suppose?— No; the man was working convenient where he was, at a ditch, or by the road- side, and he asked him if he would have one of these things, and he gave him no answer, but wrote it out and brought it to me. 11939. How long ago is that transaction?— This last season. 11940. This spring ?— I believe so. 1194J. About a month ago?— No, it was last harvest. 11942. Last September or October ?— Yes. 11943. Did you inquire of that man if he had been one of the society?— Yes, he had, and he had given it up. 11944. How long before had he given it up?— Indeed I cannot exactly say how long; I was in that parish three years last autumn, and before I went there it appears it must have been. He did not admit he was since I was there; he admitted he formerly was. 11945. Did you ask him what the nature of the oath was?— I do not think I asked him. 11946. Did you learn the oath in any other way?— No, I never learnt the oath, except that it was to be loyal. 11947. Loyal to whom?— To each other, of course. 11948. For what purpose ?— That depended upon themselves, of course. 11949. Did you ask?— I do not recollect that I did ask. 11950. Had you not reason to know that this secret system was very exten- sively working throughout the country ?— I am aware there were great efforts made to extend it, but I am equally aware that the Catholic clergy in their respective parishes, as soon as they heard of their coming in, cried out against it. 11951. In fact, it would be almost impossible for it to come into any district without the Roman- catholic clergymen knowing of it?— It might; I will give an instance of that. Last summer I remarked some strangers in my chapel; I sot information from my parishioners also that one of these persons had been there five or six years before that; he told me which he was. I went up to him and asked him what brought him there ? He gave some answer which created more suspicion in my mind, and still having no means of coming at it but taking him at his word, I left him. As I was going away, some person said if I examined him I would probably find papers about him. I came back and asked him some questions, and brought two of my parishioners as witnesses. I asked him, " Have you any objection to let me examine your pockets ? " He said he had not, and I did examine his pockets and I found no papers, and not so much as a penny piece in his pockets. I afterwards got information, that though I found no papers about him he was elected in the town of Longford as a leader, and he came there that day for that purpose. 11952. The question I asked, was whether the Roman- catholic clergy would not be aware of the fact of the thing existing if it came within their district ?— Yes, but the only way they could be aware of it is, if the people who know it will have courage to come forward to discover them. 11953. Would not you think it was your duty to use your clerical authority to get at the fact whether your parishioners belonged or not to such societies ?— Yes, and we have done so to the utmost of our power. 11954. Would it not be the means of giving you information ?— So far as we have the means, we have made use of them by enquiry. I will give you another instance to show we have done the best we could to find them out; I got infor- 643. F F 4 mation