12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr sentation of the people of Dublin, that there would be contracts of a more open Isaac Stewart, kind and more advantageous to the public ?— I do. v ^ ' On what reasons do you ground that belief?— Because another and a more nu- ( 8 May.) merous class of individuals, would then present themselves as contractors. Having stated that the increase of grand jury assessment is in some degree con- nected with the increase of crime and of prisons, have you visited the prisons of Dublin ?— Yes, I have ; but I cannot make up my mind to believe that there is an increase of crime. You have stated that there is an increase of prisoners, how do you account for an increase of prisoners without an increase of crime ?— The increased number olf prisoners, I am inclined to believe, proceeds from a desire on the part of many of those individuals that now are in the gaols to return again soon after being dis- charged, because they are better treated in Richmond bridewell and Smithfield penitentiary, than they could be any where else, by means of any provision which they could obtain for themselves. Have any specific instances come to your knowledge which lead you to that belief?— Yes. Will you state them ?— I visited all the prisons in Dublin; and on a minute in- spection of Newgate, I found a considerable number of those that are there con- fined for short periods of imprisonment; those tried and convicted in Newgate are imprisoned for six months or not exceeding six months ; and among that class there appears to me almost two- thirds of them not come to the time of manhood, proba- bly from fourteen to eighteen years of age; it appeared on looking at them, in a cursory way, in going through the gaol, that two- thirds of them might be called boys. Was there any system of hard labour introduced amongst those boys ?— None at all. Do not you know, that all prisoners under fourteen are sent to the Smithfield penitentiary, and not to the Richmond bridewell ?— I am aware that they are so sent to Smithfield penitentiary. Do not you conceive, that the introduction of a proper system of discipline and hard labour, would prevent that anxiety to return to the prisons?— I am quite satis- fied of that; I have observed the manner in which they were dressed, they appear- ed to be nearly naked, I do not recollect that I saw a dozen of them with shoes and stockings, and there were a hundred and sixty of them in a very small yard, which is the only place they have to walk in, and that is surrounded with very high • walls; their cells were convenient to this place. Can you inform the Committee of the number of persons in any of the prisons of Dublin, at any particular period?— Yes, I can; the number in all the prisons that I visited ; in Newgate there were 311. At what time?—- On the 1 ith of January last; in Richmond bridewell 260, and in Smithfield penitentiary 138; I was just going to remark, with respect to the manner in which the prisoners conducted themselves; it appeared to me, that if any place might be called a seminary for the education of crime, I should take that end of Newgate to be that seminary; I asked the officers reason why they were so ill clad, and they said, that if they went there with good clothes on, the old prisoners would steal the good clothes from them. Have you any knowledge of the medical expense of the different gaols?— I have. Will you have the goodness to state it?— The whole medical expense in the gaols at Dublin in the year 1820, taken from a grand jury warrant of that year, appears to be 1,654/. us. lid.; the first charge is for hospital keepers 42/; nurses 188/. 8s. 11 d; medicine 384/. 19s. 7d; necessaries 501/. 13s. 5d; physi- cians 300/; and surgeons 227/. 10s. What is meant by necessaries ?— We never could understand anything about it; we never could get any explanation, though we applied for it. Can you tell the amount in other years ?— I have looked back at some of the other presentment sheets, and I do not perceive there is much difference. Do you conceive there is any material difference between that and the former years you have examined into ?— Of late years, I think not. Can you give any information to the Committee, what the expense is for the medical services in any of the public hospitals of Dublin?— Yes, I can; I have a paper in my hand containing an account of the Meath hospital or county of Dublin infirmary. What