12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. in the city of Dublin?— There are only about 100 more, exclusive of the sheriff's John M'Mullen. prjSOn and the marshalsea.; all convicted criminals, however ought, in my judg- v J ment, and from the best information I can obtain on the subject, to be sent to the 2 May.) penitentiary, which has been built, and is supported at the expense of government; and they should not be a charge upon the citizens of Dublin. But until the law is altered, is not the city of Dublin obliged to provide for them, as the law at present stands; is it discretionary with the city of Dublin, whether they will have them or not ?— I am not perfectly informed upon every part of the law of the case, but I apprehend that adequate efforts have never been made by the grand jury, to induce the government to take charge of those prisoners. Are vou aware, that those two extra prisons were built by the government of the country, without at all consulting or holding any communication with the city of Dublin on the subject?— I have been informed so, and 1 am bound to state the inference, that the government of the country could not compel the grand jury under those circumstances, to take those prisons oif their hands. Are you aware, that the grand jury under such an impression, refused to present for those prisons, and the judge in consequence refused to pass a single present- ment till they first presented for the prison?— I have heard it so stated, and I con- sider the proceeding a most unconstitutional one; I can scarcely believe that it could have occurred in the way stated. Do you conceive, however, that the grand jury are to blame in the part they took in it?— It is hard for me to answer that question, as I am uninformed of the degree of effort, which the grand jury made to resist the claim. Then such being the case, you are of opinion of course, that the presentments for repaying government for building the bridewell, were not optional with the grand jury, but imperative, at least so the judge told them?— I have no doubt of the fact of the judge having told them so. Are you aware, that the grand jury are bound to present certain sums, for the Wide- street improvements ?— I believe so. For improvements in the city of Dublin, south of the city, west of the castle ?— I believe so. Are you aware, that the improvements in Skinner's- row, were effected under the powers of that Act ?— I believe so. Are you aware, that that alone cost several thousand pounds ?— I believe so. Are you aware, that the grand jury positively refused to present for that sum, under the Wide- street board ?— I have heard so. Are you aware, of the Wide- street board applying to the court by counsel, on that subject?— I have heard the fact. Have you heard, or do you believe, that the court on application, called out the grand jury and told them, that they were bound to present; and that he, by the law of the land, could not fix ons single presentment for the city of Dublin, unless they did present for that?— I never heard that circumstance stated ; the present- ments to the commissioners of Wide- streets, however, form no part of the com- plaints now made against the grand jury cess; I conceive that to be another and a distinct subject. Are you aware, that in the year 1780, there was no presentment for the fees upon prisoners, convicted or acquitted ?— I believe so. Are you aware, that by different Acts of Parliament, the prisoners are relieved from those payments, and the public are saddled with them?— lam aware, that Acts of Parliament have been passed for that purpose ; but, if I am correctly informed, it is not imperative on the grand jury to present for the full sum, which the Act authorizes; that they are, in point of fact, left at liberty to do so, if they shall think proper; but that they are not bound to go to the extent, unless sufficient cause shall be shown; 1 believe, however, that in every case the presenting grand juries of the city of Dublin, have gone to the utmost maximum which the law allows in every case. Have you read the Acts of Parliaments, by which the burthen of the fees is transferred to the grand jury?— I have seen several of those Acts, but not recently. Are there a great number of those Acts?— There are. Have you read them all ?— I do not believe that I have read them all. By the different Acts of Parliament, the salaries are limited to a certain amount, which they shall not exceed, in all cases but three?— I believe so. , Then it is only the amount of the salaries, that is discretional with the grand jary; are