12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE employed in courts of justice, and especially in those possessing a criminal juris- diction should not be suffered to exist, as it may lead to the most dangerous and corrupt practices. What was the entire amount of fees for various officers, upon the conviction and discharge of prisoners in the last year?— It amounted in the last year, to so large a sum as 2,606 /. 10 s. 8 d. paid out of the grand jury cess, and exclusive of any other emoluments to which those officers might be entitled from any other source. What was the amount for stationery for the use of the sessions- house, during the last year?— The amount for stationery for the use of the sessions- house last year, was 57/. 19 s. 6d. What is the present internal state of the gaol of Newgate, or what was it when you visited it ?— There appears to be every attention on the part of the governor, to render the internal condition of Newgate respectable ; but it appears to me, from the original formation of the prison, that in its present crowded state, he never can succeed in rendering it either regular, or in fact what a prison ought to be; I examined some of the cells in which the convicts sleep, they are eleven feet by seven and an half, and apparently nine or ten feet high ; in each of those cells there are generally six prisoners confined ; the gaoler stated that there were sometimes more. Did you make any observations with respect to the state of the female prisoners and the children in the prison of Newgate ?— The state of the female prisoners appears to be as bad as can possibly be imagined ; convicts under rule of trans- portation or of imprisonment, and prisoners committed for trial, are all mingled together ; the matron complains, that it is quite impossible to produce any regularity or reformation, in consequence of the introduction of offenders every day, who derange all that has been previously done, and demoralize the whole; the female prisoners, she stated, often feigned illness, in order to get into the hospital, as the windows look into the yard where the male convicts are confined; I saw in the prison two children if I may so call them, committed for trial, one apparently ten and the other eleven or twelve years of age, mingled with persons committed for the most serious offences, and of the most depraved character. Are you aware, that the interposition of government has lately taken place, with a view to the reform of the prisons in the city of Dublin, and a new classification of the offenders?— I am aware that efforts have been made by the government to that effect; but while the present system continues that convicted criminals sen- tenced to terms of imprisonment under six months, are sent to Newgate, and that those under rule of transportation are confined in it, it is quite imposible, that that gaol can ever be otherwise than crowded and irregular. Do you mean to state to the Committee, that prisoners convicted and under rule for transportation, are supported at the expense of the citizens of Dublin ?— I do ; they are not only supported, but they have been hitherto clothed, previously to their transportation, at the expense of the citizens. Is there no allowance made by government for the expense of such convicts food and clothing ?— There is none that I ever heard of; but I have been informed, that the charge for clothing is henceforward to cease, as far as relates to convicts under rule of transportation, but in that particular case only. Can you state any instances in which individuals have been, for a considerable length of time, kept in the gaol of Newgate, and supported at the local expense of the city of Dublin, being under rule of transportation?— The case frequently oc- curs; on the 22d of April the gaoler discharged two convicts under rule of trans- portation, one of whom had been confined above one year, and the other above two years. Can you inform the Committee of the amount of emoluments of the gaoler of Newgate in salary and fees ?— The salary of the gaoler of Newgate is 400/. a year, and he receives a fee on prisoners taken out for trial of 3 s. 4d. each. Will you state the annual amount of those fees and emoluments ?— He represented to me that his fees and emoluments at present were about 600/. a year. Does the gaoler of Newgate reside within the prison?— He resides in a house adjoining the prison, but not having any internal communication with the prison, as I am informed. Is it a house forming part of the establishment of Newgate, or is it a house maintained at private expense ?— I am not informed as to this particular fact. Does