2jf> MINUTES QV EVTDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Thomas Ellis, Is not the introduction of the name of the grand juror therefore more as a glia- ls?. rantee and recommendation, than for any other purpose ?— As far as my experience a Member. in the counties goes, and from having gone circuits for a number of years, and having - ' been frequently upon grand juries myself, I am rather inclined to think, that the ( 31 May.) name of the grand juror being introduced into the presentment, is for the purpose of enabling him to receive the money without its going into the hand of the actual contractor. Do not you conceive that is an abuse?— I do; a most capital abuse. Do you not conceive, that the appointment of public officers, whose salaries are presented by the grand juries, and whom the grand jury are bound to support in the execution of their official duties, but who are connected with the grand jurors themselves, is also an abuse ?— I am clearly of opinion that if the grand jury be accessible to any undue motive, it is more likely to be exercised in favour of a rela- tive than a stranger. Even withont imputing any undue motive, do you not think that such a system goes to deprive the grand jury of a considerable share of the public confidence?— I am quite sure it has had that effect in the city of Dublin, whether justly or not. Are you acquainted with the constitution of the county of Dublin grand juries ?— I am, without ever having served upon one of them; though I have property in the county I was never summoned. They are appointed by the county sheriffs, and taken from the individuals pos- sessed of large property and high qualifications, are they not?— Taken from the freeholders of the county, but in a great measure limited to the same persons ; there is not a greater variety on the county grand jury than on the city grand jury; about fifty persons in each, will perhaps be found to supply the grand juries for the last ten or fifteen years. But those fifty persons are persons recommended by their station and rank in the county, and not by any peculiar qualification, such as that in the city of Dublin ?— Certainly, nothing but their property and their wish to be on it ; but there are a certain number of men in the county, who wish to be on the grand juries, without any motive that I know of that will implicate the propriety of the choice. Do you conceive, that if a contract were advertized for by the county of Dublin grand jury, and by the city of Dublin grand jury, there would be as open compe- tition for the one as the other?— I really am not apprized of any circumstance that could make a difference; for though I am of opinion that the constitution of the Dublin grand jury is unpopular with a certain description of persons in Dublin; I am not sure that there is any facility afforded for fair competition, more by the one grand jury than the other; and I never heard, till I heard it from the witnesses before this Committee, that there really existed that great suspicion of the grand jury in the city of Dublin, that prevented persons from proposing for contracts. If for a considerable number of years, the greater proportion of the contractors with any grand jury, have been immediate friends and connexions of the grand jurors themselves, do you not think that such a practice is likely to deprive a grand jury of the full confidence of the public?— It may have that effect; at the. same time if it had that effect, it may have it without any just imputation upon the grand jury. Are you aware, whether in point of fact, many of the contractors and persons receiving salaries from the grand jury, are the immediate connections of the grand jurors themselves?— Whether the contractors are, or not, I have no doubt a num- ber of the officers employed, are connections of those persons serving on the grand juries ; it is a natural consequence when the situations are elective, that they should elect those persons with whom they are connected. Has there been any variation in the practice of the city of Dublin sheriffs, with regard to the constitution of the presenting grand jury, since the report of this Committee of last year ?— I am not aware of any; but I am quite convinced in my own mind, that a recommendation coming from this Committee, unconnected with any thing of personal imputation, or any imputation of misconduct, would have the effect of producing the alteration required. The Committee of last year having expressed a hope, that, in practice, a remedy may be afforded to this evil, produced by an improper application of a principle in the selection of grand juries, unsupported by the law of the land, and contrary to the best interests of the public; and that recommendation not having been attended to, how do you hope that the recommendation of this Committee would be more effective ?—•