c ON THE LOCAL TAXATION OF THE CITY OF DUBLIN. 249 Do not you conceive, that a general fixed plan throughout Ireland, would tend to public economy?— I have no doubt of it. Have you a copy of the rules and regulations of the Limerick prison ?— I have. Will you have the kindness to hand it into the Committee. [ The witness delivered in the same ( vide Appendix J.] Thomas Ellis, Esq. a Member of the Committee, Examined. HOW long have you been acquainted with the city of Dublin?— I have been acquainted with it a great number of years ; but have interfered in its internal con- cerns for the last four or five years. Are you possessed of landed property in the city of Dublin?— I am. Are you a freeman of the city of Dublin?— I am. Have you ever served upon any of the grand juries in the city of Dublin? — I never have. Is there any thing in the constitution of those grand juries which precludes you from serving?— Nothing in the constitution which precludes me; but it has not been the general habit, nor under all circumstances could I have attended had I been summoned. To what general habit do you allude?— The habit of confining the grand jury, in a great measure, to the corporation of Dublin. Who are the individuals whom you designate as the corporation?— Aldermen, sheriffs peers, and common councilmen. How many does that body consist of?— Altogether about 160. Are the grand juries of the city of Dublin taken generally, if not exclusively, from a body consisting of about 160 only ?— They are; there are a few exceptions, but they are so few, as not to infringe a general conclusion of that sort. By the adoption of this general rule, are not many persons of rank, station, and property, and character, excluded from those grand juries ?— Of course a great num- ber of them are : at the same time they are not so numerous as people in general would suppose: for this reason, that the great bulk of the city of Dublin is not freehold but leasehold interest for terms of years, and the number of people of respectability is much greater than the number of freeholders comparatively speaking, the houses being held for terms of years ; I am quite satisfied that the number of freeholders, who from their rank and station would be qualified to serve on the grand juries of the city of Dublin, is much more limited than is generally supposed, which fact is proved from the circumstance of the registered freeholders at the last election not amounting to more than 200. Is there any law, either municipal or general, which has led to this limitation of persons?— None, that I know of; it has been merely the practice, and not law. Do you conceive it a practice which is advantageous to the public interest?— I, certainly, as far as my own opinion goes, would recommend the grand juries to be selected more from the citizens at large; I am sure it would remove grounds of suspicion at least, whether well founded or otherwise, and would reconcile persons to the grand jury system, that are at present discontented with it. Do you not conceive it essential, that persons interested in the presentments themselves should be as much as possible prevented from being members of the grand jury ?— I am quite sure they should ; at the same time, that all through Ireland the system has been too much of persons on the grand jury presenting money to themselves. But you have never known, in any county grand jury, instances of individuals who are interested in the supply of stationery or any articles of that kind, being members of the grand jury ?— No, I never have; but it is a notorious and constant practice, on all grand juries, for persons to present monies to themselves for carrying on roads and things of that sort, in which they have at least as much private interest as in any contract; the system generally is erroneous, but not confined to any county in Ireland. In those cases of county presentments to which you refer, the individual who is to account for the expenditure is not the individual who receives the presentment?— I believe in a great majority of instances, particularly in the south of Ireland, the money is accounted for by the tenant, but actually received by the landlord. The individual who accounts must be the person named in the presentment ?— He must. 549- 3 R M T. S. Rice, Esq. a Member. " S^ ( 31 May.) Thomas Ellis, Esq. a Member.