a n^ wq ON THE LOCAL TAXATION OF THE CITY OF DUBLIN.. 159 interfere; but I believe any body respectably constituted and exercising such j) r. powers would be useful. . William Harty. You are aware that persons not being magistrates or grand jurors, may be \ ^ ' appointed members of those committees ?— I am not aware. ( 1+ May.) Do you conceive that provision would be a useful provision to extend to the city of Dublin, as w- ell as to all other parts of Ireland, enabling the grand jury to appoint a committee out of such persons as they think likely to discharge the duties well?— I see no objection, certainly. Are not insolvent debtors, convicted of fraud, confined in the sheriff's prison in Dublin ?— They are. Is not that, in your opinion, a great inconvenience?— It contributes to add to the population of the prison, and it also contributes to degrade that moral feeling which should be sedulously cultivated, in allowing insolvent debtors to mix with common debtors, and under that impression, they ought in my judgment, to be separated from the ordinary debtors, and stigmatized by confinement elsewhere. You have spoken of the increase of crime in Dublin, have you referred to the increase of convictions or of committals only?— Of committals only; in Dublin it is more an increase of criminals than of crime. If we were to measure the increase of crime, do you not conceive that the con- victions would be a better scale to look to than the committals ?— Perhaps, if I were to form an estimate by England it would, but not by Ireland ; because I am confi- dent that many persons escape from the apathy and indifference of prosecutors, or from the difficulty of procuring witnesses, which is not the case in England. That would apply equally to all parts of the scale; it would apply equally in the year 1790 as in the year 1820; if you wish, therefore, to measure crime, do hot you consider it would be a better mode to look at the convictions only ?— Certainly. From your experience of the prisons in Dublin, have you any reason to imagine that the number of persons committed, have increased from want of consideration in the committals?— I should think not; I believe the magistrates are more strict in committals now, than ever they had been formerly. Do you conceive that the provisions of the law are carried into effect in Newgate during your experience, so far as the state of accommodation would permit?— Cer- tainly ; the strict observance of the law in Newgate has been increasing of late years. Are you aware of any peculiar deviation from the law which has taken place in Newgate during your knowledge ?— I am not aware of any special violation, in fact it is impossible, in a prison so constituted, with free ingress and egress, that there should be a strict observance of the law. There could be no difficulty in the observance of that provision of the law which prohibits the removal of criminals to the debtors side ?— None, certainly. Has that provision of the law been complied with ?— I believe it has not been complied with. Are you aware that the criminal prisoners, who were removed from the criminal to the debtor side, or who upon their committals were placed amongst the debtors, were charged the fees for that accommodation ?— I believe nothing more than rent. To whom did that emolument go ?— To the gaoler; those however are now entirely abolished ; there are no rents or fees. Up to the period at which, by legislative interference, those fees and rent were abolished, was it not at the option of the gaoler to place criminals at the debtor's side, and to charge them rent for the accommodation which he so gave?— Certainly it was, but always made the check of the inspector and of the magistrates, and I have known the magistrates on their visits direct tnat certain persons, who were perhaps persons of higher stations in life than the ordinary felons, and therefore admitted to the debtors side, should be sent among the common felons; I have known some very old criminal prisoners put into those apartments because it would have destroyed their health to remain among the common felons. Have you known many cases of criminals placed on the debtors side ?— I have known some, but there could not be many, the apartments were very few, and gene- rally occupied by the debtors. # . . In those cases in which they did take place they were a positive violation ot the law?— Certainly. Are you aware whether, upon the statement of those cases to the inspector, or the J T 1 mci mctrn 549- I i magistrates,