112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /„ hospitals being quite distinct and in separate parts of the prison; in the Richmond William Harty. bridewell there is also a male superintendent; and in the shenffs prison, the city mar. > ^ shalsea and the Richmond bridewell, there is one female in each. In the bmithheld (. 3 May-)- penitentiary the duty has been hitherto done by the keepers wife, the number of sick confined to bed being there very few. ^ What charges are included under the head of necessaries for the sick?— 1 here were certain heavy charges included under this head so lately as the year 1820, which are not now included: I will first detail to the Committee all the charges that were made before that time, and will then specify the charges that are now omitted : these are, meat, milk, porter, wine, flannel, shoes and stockings ( of the cheapest description), flummery and oatmeal, tea and sugar, lemons and oranges, hospital furniture, and straw for the beds, bathing machines, soap and candles, coals for the hospitals, pay- ments made to messengers and to prisoners, selected on account of their good conduct, to aid and assist in some of the hospitals requiring that aid ; all surgical instruments, such as splints, bandages, crutches, trusses, and other instruments required by the surgeon for his patients ; pens, ink, paper, hospital books ; washing for certain de- partments ; the payment of female midwives, and when necessary, the payment of male accoucheurs, when the females were inadequate, and that has been occasionally a source of some expense; there is also the supplying of razors, scissors, towels, & cr. and every thing necessary for hospitals; and besides I find included under this head the payments made in Easter term 1819, and in Michaelmas 1821, for taxing the apothecary's bill by order of the Court of King's Bench : I should add, that of the foregoing articles, meat, milk, coals and candles, are no longer supplied by the apothecary, to his great satisfaction. Do you conceive that a reference to Apothecaries Hall is any practicable way of judging?— I have no doubt they do exercise a more impartial judgment than is conceived, from a feeling for the credit of their tribunal. If there were a supply of medicines laid in at the public expense in the prison, and some practical officer paid for the management of that, do you or do you not think that a very considerable saving might be introduced in this department ?— I would say, that taking into consideration the state of the five prisons of Dublin, separated as they are, and at such distances, that an arrangement of that sort would be a source of little or no saving to the public; and that I think will appear when I explain to the Committee the nature of the apothecary's charges, and the extent of sickness that pre- vails in the prisons; such a change might be a source of economy and of convenience if there was but one great prison where the apothecary was resident, and where the supply of medicines might be kept; under such circumstances, it might be a source of convenience and economy, but to have medicines in every establishment, to have the same apothecary travelling from one to another and making up the medicines in each, the payments to be made, and the accommodation given to such an officer, and the expense of maintaining the different establishments, would I should think, rather increase than diminish the charge. The charge for medicines would appear enormous when compared with that of other similar establishments, for example, in that of the county of Dublin; can you explain the cause of the difference?— I think I can satisfactorily. Can you state the facts first with regard to the Dublin gaol?— In the county gaol there is one medical attendant, a surgeon; he receives a salary of 80/. a year ; the medicines are supplied by an apothecary, and I dare say they seldom vary more than from twenty to thirty pounds in a year, seldom so much as thirty; but the reason of the difference in that respect between the county and city is simply this, that the county prison is placed out of the town, is extensive and commodious, compared with the amount of its prisoners, seldom one hundred in number, some of whom / the state prisoners) are supplied by government, there being a distinct officer for those prisoners: but the material point is this, that the prisoners committed to the county gaol are, almost without exception, vigorous healthy subjects, and I can state from my own knowledge, having attended the city convicts at Kilmainham during the prevalence ot fever; that even then and at other times, there were scarcely any sick in Jvilmamham ; and I would say, considering all these things, that the charge for medi- cines amounts to a very reasonable sum in a prison where virtually there is little or no sickness; whereas in the gaol of Newgate alone, without reference to the other our, you have a population crowded to excess in an incommodious prison, a population consisting of the very dregs of the lowest orders in Dublin, female pros- Sf' M arC. 6 g,'! at thlCVeS in Dublin' almost al1 of * hem diseased ; there are infirm old people, and many especially of lowest class, who are constantly in a state